Chat log of discussion for “SL Chamber of Commerce Draft Proposal”

[19:07] Well, first, thanks to everyone for coming tonight! This is very exciting.

[19:07] By way of a quick intro, I’m the Chief Operating Officer for an accounting firm in RL

[19:07] The name of the firm is KAWG&F and we have offices in Maryland and one in SL

[19:08] This presentation is an initial vision for an organization to give some unity to the SL business community

[19:08] needs a unifying network

[19:08] Everything else here represents possibilities

[19:09] Without a unified network, it will be impossible for the business community

[19:09] to move forward in any meaninful way..

[19:09] like the old cliche: "A house divided cannot stand"

[19:09] I realize there is a history of false stars with similar endeavors

[19:10] and hope we can incorporate what we can learn from those experiences

[19:10] and find common ground despite some differences

[19:10] With all that said, I am going to start rolling the slides

[19:11] As we know, SL is in a frontier stage

[19:11] But, even though things are just forming

[19:11] there are already over 3000 businesses here

[19:11] And, many millions of dollars change hands each month

[19:12] I think in July it was approximately $6 million dollars in transactions between users/residents

[19:12] I believe that the business community has an opportunity to be more successful as a whole if we can work towards some common goals

[19:13] The current state of affairs is a bit chaotic, but out of chaos, comes order

[19:13] :)

[19:13] Here is a draft mission statement. Again these are just some ideas

[19:14] Again, you see the themese of unity, working collectively, and also, giving ourselves and the community

[19:14] some assurance of conduct and ethics

[19:14] BTW, can everyone see the slides ok?

[19:14] taking awhile to rez

[19:14] Yes

[19:14] yup

[19:14] yes

[19:14] sure can!

[19:14] am i going too fast?

[19:14] yep

[19:14] good pace

[19:15] no fine

[19:15] pace is good

[19:15] Ok, good.

[19:15] nope all is good

[19:15] So, some ideas about eligibility

[19:15] Business owners from both SL and RL and those cross over folks

[19:15] We will need to develop an application process

[19:16] And in that application process would need to make sure that we are dealing with reputable folks

[19:16] Also, develop a non-business owner membership

[19:16] A list of potential benefits.

[19:17] Again, not cast in stone and we may find that we need to limit the scope quite a bit in the beginning to get out of the blocks!

[19:17] One of the things that strikes me as really important is the ability to work through a lot of the issues surrounding

[19:18] RL businesses coming in and how that impacts the economic environment for the business that

[19:18] have grown up organically within SL

[19:18] *on

[19:19] Ok…I will continue

[19:19] Here is a list of potential benefits to non members and the community

[19:19] I think it would be very helpful if people had a place to go for general info on business in SL

[19:20] As well, as being able to give some assurance as to the standards that chamber members agree to uphold

[19:21] As for assisting RL companies in their integration, by working with them, I think it could help minimize the potential negative impact

[19:21] And, here is the final slide — these are some ideas as to how to implement

[19:21] Starting with the most important!

[19:21] Having this be more than just one person.

[19:22] While I have presented some concepts and starting ideas, my main goal was to get a dialogue going

[19:22] and form a group of folks to work through some of this stuff

[19:22] OK, that’s the meat…questions, discussion?

[19:23] absolutely great

[19:23] Thanks, Sudane

[19:23] this is exactly whats needed

[19:23] I was curious what the application process would entail? How would it tackle identity?

[19:24] If anyone is interested, I am happy to email a copy of these slides

[19:24] I am not sure, Seb, we need to study that and I need help figuring that out

[19:24] Seb that is a great question for the Board :)

[19:24] But I think it’s crucial

[19:24] Could I make a comment?

[19:24] please do

[19:25] I think it’s important to distinguish among 3 types of entities:

[19:25] 1) Chamber of Commerce that helps bond the business community and give it identity and help share good practices, tips, etc

[19:25] also im sure your aware the several groups have been attempted like this in world and failed what is the projected turn around timeline for the influstructure of the group and why is it different?

[19:25] 2) Better Business Bureau run as a non-profit which has consumers help monitor business and has criteria to establish good practices

[19:26] 3) Consumer advocacy groups that press for accountability

[19:26] Yes, Asri, I have heard that. We have to make it different. We have to work together and see it through

[19:26] would the chamber also assist new SL residents’ businesses to get sarted?

[19:26] You are correct, Prok.

[19:26] let’s let prok finsih his question

[19:26] I think past efforts have foundered on the failure to distingush among these things and the problem of just one big business or powerful group trying to run it and force others to unite around it.

[19:26] It is an excellent point.

[19:26] great proposal! gtg, c u all!

[19:27] It’s very important to recognize thati n real life, business assocations emerge among equals on the basis of shared perceptions

[19:27] Which do we focus on, which do we start with?

[19:27] not because one big business parachutes and says "unite around me"

[19:27] There’d have to be very compelling reasons to say, oh, let’s let one very powerful RL business with lots of resourcing and staff

[19:27] so what are those compelling reasons?

[19:27] lead the charge on this for others without their consent at the initial stages

[19:27] The other problem with past efforts

[19:27] thats great in theory… but what makes this different and what would be an estimated timeline in completeing the technical things so that it is possible to start implementing these works?

[19:28] has been that people just look for a whitelisting method to put themselves and their pals on the whitelist to sell their products wiht a Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval

[19:28] and blacklist their rivals

[19:29] I hear what you are saying Prok, but don’t you think we need to start somewhere in terms of making it better?

[19:29] Well surely you start not by saying "here’s my institution, I’m just one business, apply and be on my website"

[19:29] I think you need to back up a few steps

[19:29] No, not at all

[19:29] and say "can we make a working group of SL busiensses and RL busiensses that might work on creating this"

[19:29] As I mentioned several times, i do not want this to be about my business

[19:30] and frankly perhaps there is no commonality for SL and RL businesses; I suspect that may be the case

[19:30] i am a member of the sellers guild and personally what i do to avoid this is investigate the complaints personally i have found as prok says alot of the accusations have been false

[19:30] well whoever runs the code and the third-party website is running it Chili

[19:30] it’s like whoever owns the sim

[19:30] it comes down to that

[19:30] but i report that too

[19:30] Prok, how do you suggest it be handled?

[19:30] As I just said, an organizing committee of those committed to meet once a week or even more frequently

[19:30] Asri, as far as timeline goes, that would need to be worked out in discussins

[19:31] whose purpose is to make a set of rules of the road for such an organization

[19:31] *discussions

[19:31] not an already out-of=the-box applciation process to be dealt with by an unnaccountable executive somewhere

[19:31] That is, there’s nothing to stop you from doing that of course

[19:31] There is nothing to prevent creating an RL org to "own" the web site etc

[19:31] but it just depends on whether you want buy-in

[19:31] well organizations get created when people have a need for them and already work together

[19:32] This would not be a KAWG&F project. I am volunteering my time and effort to do this

[19:32] I think Chili was suggesting a process like that, and these were just her initial ideas

[19:32] fantasizing how they should be structured from the top down is what makes them fail in SL

[19:32] /ao on

[19:32] A Board needsd sto be created to answer all of these questions

[19:32] it’s good if there is a process like that, but it’s also important to understand the mission statement

[19:32] Correct, Bean

[19:32] what is the mission statement, and is it already pre-cooked?

[19:32] once we have a group committed to assisting with this we can then flush the details

[19:33] it was an example of what might be done Prok

[19:33] The mission statement needs to be approved by a group

[19:33] yes tottally

[19:33] but we need to have some kind of ballpark concept to draw in those with stake

[19:33] is the mission to unify business because it needs unifying?

[19:33] around what principle?

[19:33] and ultimately, the group will build a reputation as being honest and valuable, or not.

[19:33] is th emission to ensure that Stroker Serpentine will never have his beds sold at yardsales? or?

[19:34] huh?

[19:34] well I cite that as a small but significant example of how widely differing economic models stand behind business unity

[19:34] some people favour the content creator position that says there can’t even be any first-sale doctrine

[19:34] others say this is a pioneer world that must affirm the free flow of goods and services

[19:35] there are all kinds of economic theories people promote in SL

[19:35] The question is, which theories would back the greatest chance for survival and then thriving for SL?

[19:36] since SL businesses are also RL businesses, is it useful to have some sort of RL organization backing the SL one?

[19:36] perhaps you should answer that? I know I’d say that only a commitment to free market capitalism would make sense

[19:36] but there are people in the audience who would argue for socialism or guild-type of craftsmen based economies

[19:36] A Chamber of Commerce (also referred to in some circles as a Board of Trade, though this phrase is not commonly used in the United States) is a form of business network. The primary goal of a chamber is to improve the business climate in a locality,

[19:36] your RL business works in RL America under capitalism; do you plan to use that same operating principle here?

[19:36] typically through business networking, lobbying, and common projects and a selection of business services.

[19:36] i don’t think we are going to end up with a one-size fits all

[19:36] — wikipedia

[19:37] Wikipedia wouldn’t be a source for me to accept uncritically Rubaiyat but no need to get bogged down in that

[19:37] which sounds reasonable

[19:37] Again, the plan will be owned by the organization, not just one person

[19:37] well how about reading it then?

[19:37] business trade organization or network *to do what*?

[19:37] I did?

[19:37] seems like a good starting point

[19:37] so different types of business would have different ways to solve their issues. some would choose to join the CC, others would have their own solutions?

[19:38] I think you called for a starting point

[19:38] well lobbying for what? against whome?

[19:38] u have to have a starting point…and like all things it is both

[19:38] common business interests

[19:38] I imagine that it will not appeal to eveyone, but hopefully it will be valuable to enough people

[19:38] lobby to have no first sale doctrine? or lobby to have tighter protection of creator coded permissions that might hobble free trade?

[19:38] we r pulling together businesses to share resources that will be of interest

[19:38] against impediments to common business intersts

[19:38] lobby for what issues the group feels need to be lobbyed for

[19:38] lets leave the individual issues for later

[19:39] you can’t predict that until you have a group

[19:39] negativity would be a BIG impediment in my book

[19:39] excuse me im sorry can someone send me a log of the meeting and questions? i must run

[19:39] no problem asri

[19:39] thx guys:)

[19:39] OK well do you feel there is enough of a commonality of interests between RL-based and SL indigenous businesses to make sense to join in one chamber?

[19:40] poinky, will we have a transcrip avail?

[19:40] Yes, we’ll figure out a way to make it available

[19:40] i can’t answer that, it is up to each individual

[19:40] Would starting with a set of stated values help?

[19:40] i think so seb

[19:41] Values r important

[19:41] I believe the group can find that.

[19:41] as a business network

[19:42] That is the key, once the group is created it will answer all of these specific questions

[19:42] and with the intent of improving the business climate (whatever that means)

[19:42] i was doubting that too prov. – i think indiginous SL business & newcomer corporations will have a lot of the same concerns but self-identify in 2 distinct groups the CoC could have meeting fourms for both separately

[19:42] which will answer the question of who joins and finds value in it

[19:42] Bean, you still need to have some kind of chapeau, or some kind of theme to draw people

[19:43] will there be a cost fo join like in FL?

[19:43] that is what the missions and values will do

[19:43] We will need to work through some planning to figure out membership costs

[19:43] and the network

[19:44] i think the 3 items Prov. mentioned at the beginning unify interests & indicated the mission & goals

[19:44] Right Rub, seeing who is involved will also attract

[19:44] I think Prok made a good point about the 3 areas

[19:44] Yes, I agree, Prok was right on with that

[19:44] no doubt

[19:44] and I think we will need to be aware of that, and be prepared to deal with that

[19:44] I would agree that Prok nicely articulated 3 areas

[19:45] how do they relate to each other and what specifically are we trying to create

[19:45] is there room, and is it desirable for the others to be created as well?

[19:45] rather are they necessary?

[19:45] These are all good questions, I am glad we will have a transcript to study from

[19:46] will the CoC just be the same as in FL or have other SL-specific aspects related to this medium?

[19:46] u have offered a calling card to Poinky Malaprop.

[19:46] ur calling card was accepted.

[19:46] I am thinking Xantha, there will definitely be SL specific things

[19:47] We are serving in an entirely different environment

[19:47] It does help to have at least some overall cohesive goal, to say "business needs to unite in a CoC because…." and then say…becaue conditions are tough? Because it’s a challenging new technology? *something*

[19:47] well keep in mind that it MAY include RL businesses

[19:47] Exactly, Prok

[19:47] just liek a CoC in RL in a city has different needs and purposes then another RL City

[19:47] Right on, Bean

[19:48] yes, and I like the idea of a common ethos

[19:48] though I havent a clue what that will be

[19:48] sort of a consumers bill of rights

[19:48] that all members support

[19:48] What would even be characterized as a business? in SL, there is no transparency; there is no D&B; there’s no yellow pages hardly

[19:48] well does it matter?

[19:49] all questions that need answers Prok…good ones

[19:49] More good questions, Prok. I have been thinking about that too

[19:49] Yes it does, because I know I’d rather sit in a committee meeting with people who really try to really run busiensses under these harsh conditions here

[19:49] and approved/vetted/member businesses could post the SL CoC logo on their storefronts

[19:49] if we are formed around giving a fair deal and upholding priciples

[19:49] rather than pepole spouting ideology about how that might be done for their college term paper

[19:50] good ideas Xan

[19:50] well I expect the board will be elected

[19:50] that’s what i was thinking Rubaiyat

[19:50] you can do things like elections successfully when you have like-minded

[19:50] and if there are come cottage industries represented there, as chosen by the membership then so be it

[19:50] Like-minded have to come together — and to understand what the like is they are minded about

[19:50] Chili – do you have any next steps planned?

[19:51] Yes, first, because of timing issues, I want to make sure that people in different time zones have a chance for input as well

[19:51] So, I am working on setting up some additional presentations

[19:52] i think it will be a dedicated effort required by the Board/other participants to establish & run a successful CoC

[19:52] I am hoping some folks will step forward who are interested on working on this and then we can start to develop some ideas to present to the community

[19:53] Chili well maybe you could just express what you personally want and what motivates you?

[19:53] why you felt this was needed and wanted to take it on as a volunteer activity?

[19:53] chili – i think it is important to get some high profile indiginous/organic SL business owners on the CoC side to avoid scaring the ideological crowd off that the CoC seems corporate and repugnant

[19:53] I guess the best way I can say it, is I just see a need and thought I would try to help

[19:54] I agree Xantah, that would be very helpful

[19:54] that’s a good point; I wonder if the indigenous businesses are at the point where they’ll all be cleared away tho such as to make worrying about them unnecessary

[19:54] the group tools might give them a bit longer shelf life however

[19:55] Prok, what motivates you to come and hear about it???

[19:55] Because I’ve run a business for 2 years in SL.

[19:56] I’ve also run a Consumer Advocates group that has had a very hard time due to very basic social and technical limitations.

[19:56] and I’ve also participated in many debates over these 2 years with people who started BBBs and CoCs

[19:56] mainly to advance their own business interests

[19:56] and that’s understandable

[19:56] ok, do u anticiapte something like this to be valuable to u and your business?

[19:56] sometimes a group of businesses, in advancing their own interests, are the tide that raises all boats

[19:56] For any customer service intensive business like my own

[19:57] every minute spent talking in a committee where there is no cash being earned

[19:57] in an environment with a highly unstable platform

[19:57] with crashes, griefing, Wed. hurricanes etc

[19:57] is time lost

[19:57] so it has to be budgeted carefully

[19:57] understanable

[19:57] so to the extent it can be done through asynchronous forums, notecard givers etc all the better

[19:58] yes, are we ready for tomorrow’s hurricane?

[19:58] having laggy meetings iwth only 40 on the sim is always a recipe for a disaster

[19:58] it will indeed be a tsunami.

[19:58] Bringing many good and many bad things to SL.

[19:58] With huge velocity.

[19:59] 3 steps forward 2 steps back

[19:59] ok, we’re sort of out of time

[20:00] clearly there seems to be a lot of interest

[20:00] and concern about these dieas

[20:00] and I’m sure Chili looks forward to working

[20:00] with you to come up wioth a workable organization

[20:00] keep an eye open for future announcmeent s from her about other sessions

[20:00] Yes, thank you everyone for coming tonight. The feedback was invaluable

[20:01] but for now, let’s all thank Chili

[20:01] and thank you all for coming tonight

[20:01] Thank you Chili.

[20:01] THANKS

[20:02] Thanks for having us Hank!

[20:02] I think probably RL businesses will wipe out indigenous business, yes.

[20:02] yes big thanks to ESC for letting us use the space

[20:02] thanks Hank!

[20:02] They will have the one thing that people provided here for free, but paid for: their time

[20:02] I hope we can stay here for future meetings

[20:02] the entire thing has run on unbillable hours

[20:03] once you take away that from indigenous business and provide billable hours from outside companies

[20:03] and these RL businesses may need a CoC less

[20:03] the locals will be wiped out

[20:03] or at least have different needs from a CoC

[20:03] there is no fre lunch Prok in RL or SL

[20:03] only the most local and stubborn of locals might survive

[20:03] well but there has been Bean

[20:03] free accounts, free islands, free unbillable hours

[20:03] See you all next time!

[20:03] that’s how people made their businesses

[20:03] Thanks Poinky!

[20:03] Unbillable is never Free :)

[20:03] with Linden subsidiesi in fact if they came before 2005

[20:03] thanks!

[20:04] it’s taken out of time Bean try to hear it

[20:04] try to hear what it means to be a content creator here who spends hours creating for free

[20:04] all these $20,000 a year salaries made from SL rely on those free unbillable hours

[20:04] once Chili can put her IT guy on making content using Cad or whatever

[20:04] then those largely home-based, largely female workers in SL are wiped out

[20:04] like they would be in Russia or Turkey

[20:05] hmmmm….ok

[20:05] that’s a possibilty, Prok.

[20:05] Have you been able to bill every hour and cost here Rez?

[20:05] that’s what I mean

[20:05] A rather unhappy one…

[20:05] haha no, i haven’t been able to

[20:06] well which boss in the universe can pay for you to wait for servers to come back up?

[20:06] however indiginous businesses have what FL big business does not, creativity and innovative fresh content, and despite SL being unbillable hours, it is cheaper than having a business in FL; maybe FL tools can further enable unique indigious businesses

[20:06] well it will be interesting to see if that theory works

[20:06] right on Xan

[20:06] yes, true

[20:07] but there is a big difference between content-creators who don’t bill hours and then finally can just endlessly sell copies and go play WoW

[20:07] i’ve been trying to think of a way to say that very thing

[20:07] and service providers who have to keep laying on the same services over and over

[20:07] yes, true

[20:07] many SL businesses are labors of love, not stricktly money making enterprises with no heart.

[20:07] The idea that only amateurs with unbillable hours to throw at this place are the innovative creative ones

[20:07] is a deep fallacy

[20:08] also true, prok

[20:08] all it takes is Millions of Us or Nissan or Aimee Weber professonalizing to display those fantasies

[20:08] sure there are many innovators

[20:08] *displace them

[20:08] i just dont thing big FL business is a big innovator

[20:08] and that’s sad because the miracle of SL was the capacity of amateurs to achieve something

[20:08] well you haven’t seen what they do with virtual worlds yet?

[20:09] The Magic Circle of early adaption in SL isn’t magic.

[20:09] I think individuals will still be able to compete based on quality and creativity.

[20:09] Who is Starax? His store is gone, seized by Governor Lidnen.

[20:09] I would tend to agree, Poinky, except that companies can throw more money at this place

[20:09] i agree Poinky.

[20:09] Does a new person know who Cubey Terra is? There’s no more Linden subsidized tp or pointer to his sim.

[20:09] he left voluntarily

[20:10] well but the factors that made him leave are ones that have broken many many people

[20:10] the idea that Walmart puts all mom & pop stores out of business is also a fallacy.

[20:10] yes, stability of the platform is a problem

[20:10] having Linden GOM you or break your scripts or compete against you with special offers

[20:10] this makes many leave

[20:10] i’ve been underwhelmed with big business’ presence in SL to date; wells fargo, microsoft, american apparel, toyota

[20:10] but one that will keep RL business away too

[20:10] toyota’s here?

[20:10] other real estate agents left when Lindens suddenly decided to themselves compete with their own customers and go into the housing rental business for a time.

[20:11] Xantha, I’m totally underwhelmed too

[20:11] In fact, I think they have no point of purchase.

[20:11] and they won’t stay, and many will be blown off these servers

[20:11] but all it takes is a few determined ones with deep pockets

[20:11] i checked out the American Apparel store – yawn.

[20:11] for now, most RL business see SL as a marketing opportunity

[20:11] or it takes a Telco from Canada instead of a Verizon from America who wants to try harder

[20:11] not a s a place to create value

[20:12] well but that can change instantly

[20:12] You already see Spin Martin talking in sound bytes about the need to "stop marketing to us and come play with us"

[20:12] hehe

[20:12] so American Apparel will figure out the "come play with us" part next week or the month after

[20:12] but I think we can expect more and more buinsesses to open up SL store fronts, in the same way they have web pages

[20:12] as a consumer, not a business owner, i am more interested in seeing what the little guy does, not what a huge RL conglomorate does in SL.

[20:13] Zorn, it’s easy to root for that idea, but the Lindens have pre-structured it so that only the big guy can buy the islands.

[20:13] the real opportunity is for healthy billable hours budgets to fund innovative learning, collaboration, experiential sims which would in turn strengthen/establish FL brands in SL

[20:13] And only the island owner can secure his venue from griefing and disruptiong.

[20:13] and not even *cough*

[20:13] and if American Apparel figures it out, and produces things that are valuable to consumers, then that’s good, isn’t it?

[20:13] well Poinky all it takes is for Aimee or Torrid to be co-opted by AA and make them dresses and shirts

[20:13] and if not then, Nancy ACS or somebody else like that

[20:13] from china or India

[20:13] It’s been great getting together with everyone tonight, I’m hitting the hay, was a long day.

[20:14] ok thanks Chili

[20:14] ok, thanks again Chili!

[20:14] thanks again, Chili!

[20:14] thanks chili!

[20:14] night chili