SignpostMarv's Blog

NOTE: While every effort has been made to ensure that this transcript made it statefully out of Second Life, a bug in SL’s handling of UTF-8 characters required manual clean-up of the transcript so it didn’t have spatterings of weird characters in it. However, any difference between the original transcript and this one should be so minor you wouldn’t notice :-D

1. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:35] ok, let’s start

   [12:36] Welcome everyone

   [12:36] to another exciting presentation

2. Sitearm Madonna
   

   [12:36] if you want to monitor the song names here is the browser link: http://66.34.54.162:8002

3. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:36] By Sitearm Madonna of USC’s Annenberg Institute

4. Sitearm Madonna
   

   [12:36] (look only at the bottom "current song:" title)

5. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:36] I actually don’t know much about this project, depsite what Frank says :)

   [12:36] so I’m hoping to learn a lot

6. Sitearm Madonna
   

   [12:36] Yay!

7. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:36] As you may have noticed

   [12:36] I’m wearing a fancy hat

   [12:37] which is designed to get peoples permission to have their comments

8. Second Life
   

   [12:37] beladona Memorial noticed

9. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:37] included in the published transcript

   [12:37] If you clikc the green ring, you give permission

   [12:37] if you click the red, you deny permission, and your comments will not be included

   [12:37] if you haven’t permitted or denied

   [12:37] and you speak

   [12:38] you should get a dialog box asking you for permission

   [12:38] if this starts misbehvaing during the talk

   [12:38] let me know, and II’ll turn it off

   [12:38] so without further ado,

10. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:38] @Poinky.. please have a seat

11. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [12:38] I present

    [12:38] Sitearm Madonna

12. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:38] or you shall be left o..O

    [12:38] :) ty !

    [12:38] ok bear with us

    [12:38] as we move the theatire

13. Pham Neutra
    

    [12:39] :)

14. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:39] whew

    [12:39] good job all !

    [12:39] Yay!

15. Zoe Visconti
    

    [12:39] nice landing :)

16. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [12:39] good thing I held on to my hatt

17. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:39] Hello all! I am pleased to be with you today :)

    [12:40] Our topic is "City Building in Virtual Reality"

18. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [12:40] wonderful!

19. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:40] Let me address a few logistics items first:

    [12:40] 1. I am going to present in Chat

    [12:40] 2. I am going to show slides as I present Â$(H a(Bnd I will try to allow time for them to rezz for you

    [12:40] 3. I will be playing City Building Music and a few selected sound files as we listen :) The themes are Greece, China, Rome and Egypt.

    [12:40] 4. I would like to introduce two fellow City Building friends of mine Â$(H D(Bane Benford and Schmophitt Neruda

20. beladona Memorial
    

    [12:41] /c

21. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:41] 5. In the Walkthrough Demo we will have a chance for questions and discussion as we move through the builds

    [12:41] . First a disclaimer — "city building in virtual reality" is NOT a reality yet

    [12:41] . My goal is to present this concept for discussion and implementation over time

    [12:41] . I am here at Kuurian Expedition because Poinky Malaprop come to our first city building event here on Annenberg Island

    [12:41] . So I figure there is something in this concept that engages other’s attention as it does mine :)

    [12:42] . Here is our timeline — present the concept, show two demos, then discuss

    [12:42] "about an hour , including discussion.. will get you out on time

    [12:42] . I invite you to look over the rest of the island at the end of the talk if you have not been here before :)

    [12:42] . A brief word about my background

    [12:42] . I am a listed LL developer

    [12:43] . My key roles are to consult and expedite selected Second Life Virtual Worlds Projects :)

    [12:43] . Today we want to present the concept of city building in virtual reality

    [12:43] . And enroll those of you who are interested in helping us work out how to do it in Second Life :)

    [12:43] . To reach these goals we will understand the purpose of the sim we are in and why it is an appropriate host for this topic

    [12:44] . We will also look at what defines the "genre" of a city building computer game and how it might extend into a virtual reality platform

    [12:44] . We will be looking at some builds today but there is also a web links notecard handout I will provide :)

    [12:44] . The sim we are in is Annenberg Island owned by the University of Southern California

    [12:44] . The Center on Diplomacy runs a unique project called "Public Diplomacy and Virtual Worlds"

    [12:45] . This sim is therefore what I call a Concept Sim. It’s purpose is to present information in an engaging manner.

    [12:45] . It’s mission is to keep exploring (!) how virtual worlds can help better connect people

    [12:45] (get it "explore" :)

    [12:45] *coff* sorry

22. totally Vavoom
    

    [12:45] ;-)

23. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:45] . What is a city building game?

    [12:45] . Well the very first was SimCity

    [12:46] . Bottom line — you are the city planner — and you make the decisions where to invest workforce and finance to meet basic needs of your citizens

    [12:46] . The computer runs the citizens for you

    [12:46] . The fascination of a good city building game is in the combination of its logical intricacy and its people orientation

    [12:46] hi IN.. have a seat :)

    [12:46] . You have to juggle many factors all at once. We will see some examples in a minute.

    [12:47] . Working to build a working city with satisfied citizens and high quality of life can be Very addicting o..O :)

    [12:47] . Now let’s discuss city building as it might be done in virtual reality

    [12:47] . What would City Building in Virtual Reality look like if we had it?

    [12:47] . In current city building games you don’t get to BE one of your citizens, you don’t get to WALK IN the city you have created :(

    [12:48] . Therefore, in a virtual reality city builder, the City Planner should be able to be one of her characters, "in world" , "in avatar" :)

    [12:48] . In current city building games, you interact with computer City Planners for trade and economic cooperation, or war and economic competition.

24. Second Life
    

    [12:48] Poinky Malaprop sings “What if god was one of us..?”

25. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:48] @Poinky ;)

26. totally Vavoom
    

    [12:48] just a slob like one of us!! TV warbles!

27. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:48] . Therefore, in virtual reality city builder, the City Planners should be able to interact online with other, live City Planners.

    [12:49] . Perhaps even walk your avatar in Their cities as well as yours :)

    [12:49] . Finally, a virtual reality city builder should be able to run 24.7 (barring Update Wednesdays ;) ).

    [12:49] . Why? Because cities evolve and grow and trade whether the City Planner is awake and online or not ;)

    [12:50] . City Building in virtual reality sounds abstractÂ,T (Bwhy bother with it? :)

    [12:50] . First, current city builders are avid to walk IN their cities as one of their citizens.

    [12:50] . The newest games use movable 3D game engines instead of fixed Isometric "god’s eye" views.

    [12:50] . This has just served to whet gamers’ appetites even more

    [12:50] . Second, city building embeds major assumptions about economics and social dynamics.

    [12:51] . As in any simulation you learn a LOT from seeing how the assumptions play out.

    [12:51] . And thirdÂ,T (Bit’s FUN! :)

28. Cara Fei
    

    [12:51] yeah

29. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:51] . Are we already doing city building in virtual reality?

    [12:51] . Short answer — no

    [12:51] . Long answer — bits and pieces are coming into play

    [12:52] Here is a suggested Checklist for City Building in Virtual Reality

    [12:52] . It must have economics — costs to cover, income to earn, growth to fund

    [12:52] . It must have architecture — functional fun structures to do things in

    [12:52] . It must have demographics — model behavior cos people are Not robots

    [12:52] . And it must be rich enough to be fun and engaging

    [12:53] . Now I would like to direct your attention to the Scale Model city to the left of the slide screen

    [12:53] . In this simple city builder model we start HERE with the one essential, food, represented here by a wheat field and the Farmer’s Barn :)

    [12:53] . Over HERE we have another resource, Clay, with the Potter’s Shed located next to it

    [12:54] . Over HERE we have a vital element, a School

    [12:54] . Over HERE we have a Clinic for the doctor to treat patients in

    [12:54] . And finally HERE we have a Warehouse where goods are stored for exchange. This represents Mediation or Government :)

    [12:55] . Looking back now at the slide display, here is a display of the economic flow of skills between those five structures we just looked at

    [12:55] . Farmer exchanges Wheat for services such as instruction and health care

    [12:55] . Potter makes useful pots to put things in, in exchange for Wheat and other services

    [12:55] hi Diesel.. have a seat :)

    [12:56] . A city builder must model the exchange of skills because advanced societies develop only when skills can be specialized and deepened

    [12:56] . Here on the slide display is a list of the structures we looked at in the scale model

    [12:56] . Notice that people need a place to LIVE in as well as WORK in :)

    [12:56] . And we have not even addressed entertainment or spirituality in this simple model :)

    [12:57] . Finally, on this slide, we hint at the demographics or people side of what a city builder must model

    [12:57] . Population and available workforce contrast with workforce demand (underemployment is not good nor is not having enough people for the work needed)

    [12:57] . Family relationships have been modeled in some city builders — Dad starts as a farmer but Daughter becomes a doctor, for example :)

    [12:58] . The intangible aspects of demographics are included in city builders as well, including morale and aesthetics

    [12:58] . Before we go to the walkthrough portion of today’s talk, here are some web resources that provide more information on city building

    [12:58] . These links are available on a notecard as well

    [12:59] Frank might you hand it out for me :) ?

30. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [12:59] yes

31. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:59] ok we will get the notecard to you before end of the talk

    [12:59] . Now on to the walkthrough demo

32. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [12:59] :-)

33. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:59] please stay fully Seated :)

34. Second Life
    

    [13:00] beladona Memorial holds on

35. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:00] whew ! :)

    [13:00] ok before we deplane

    [13:00] we are going to walk you around this build

36. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:00] some people’s prim hair seems to have blown off

37. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:00] and show some of the structures

    [13:01] heh

    [13:01] so follow me and Dane to your RIGHT to the Bust Garden first stop

    [13:01] ignore the Time Dilation

    [13:01] this Bust Garden was made by Schmophitt Neruda

    [13:02] and shows the name of the game we are demoing "Caesar IV"

    [13:02] and the studio "Tilted Mill:"

    [13:02] it is ALso an "aesthetic structure"

    [13:02] when you put a garden like this in your city

    [13:02] it increases the Appeal and Value of teh land

    [13:02] and increases taxes you can levy :)

38. Vincent Doctorow
    

    [13:03] mm, taxes.

39. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:03] ok NEXT up the Fountain.. follow me :)

    [13:03] this FOuntain is also by Schmophitt

    [13:03] it is even higher appeal

    [13:03] I should mention these builds were done from images before the game even came out

    [13:04] so again Bust Garden and FOuntain are about Aesthetics and Appeal

    [13:04] over HERE is an Obelish

40. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:04] which game? did you mention it?

41. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:04] Obelisk

    [13:04] @POinky "Caesar IV"

    [13:04] the obelish has Egyptian Hieroglypics

    [13:04] for "Tilted Mill" :)

    [13:04] in the Game it represents a Military Victory

    [13:05] yes you can have military in city builders too BUT

    [13:05] you have to pay for it and you have to keep the citizens satisifed about it

    [13:05] heh.. sound famillar ?

    [13:05] ok these Displays

    [13:05] show different play styles from people all around the world that are brought together by the game

    [13:06] each of the Names is a registrant in Tilted Mill forums

42. Decka Mah
    

    [13:06] /hug Diesel Tuck

43. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:06] and Tilted Mill is where I, Schmophitt and Dane found out about Second Life

44. Second Life
    

    [13:06] Decka gives Diesel a big hug.

45. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:06] these were done using the free downloadable demo

46. Second Life
    

    [13:06] Dane Benford nods

47. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:06] you can get the web link from one of the yellow signs

    [13:07] ok now we will go to the BIG BUILDS :)

48. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:07] very nice

49. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:07] follow me to the Market now please

    [13:07] the Market has two key purposes

    [13:08] . supplies the citizens with goods (food, pots in our example)

    [13:08] and . venue for trade with other cities

    [13:08] to earn income for growth

    [13:08] the tables are the sales area

    [13:08] the brick area is storage for trade

    [13:08] Dane here did this entire Market from flat images

    [13:08] on the tables

    [13:09] some of us city builders have been learning how to make goods to sell

    [13:09] but frankly Dane has us beat o..O

50. Dane Benford
    

    [13:09] :p

51. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:09] (Dane chime in anytime ;)

    [13:09] ok next the WINERY !

52. Dane Benford
    

    [13:09] btw all the thinks on the tables are free to copy

    [13:09] things*

53. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:10] the WInery is an example of 1. Industyr, and 2. Luxury Good

54. Second Life
    

    [13:10] Autopilot canceled

55. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:10] here is Dane’s newest, a Wine Press

    [13:10] up on the second level, amphorae in racks

    [13:10] and if you saw them, on the outside were large Wine Casks

    [13:10] all custom work by Dane

    [13:10] who is an artist in real life

    [13:10] Dane, comments? :)

56. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:11] so.. I’m not sure I get what you’re setting up? Will these be pieces for players to use in the city building game?

57. Dane Benford
    

    [13:11] all done last night in a panic I will add

58. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:11] ah let’s go to the last build Poinky

59. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:11] or are users supposed to build these things?

60. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:11] and take questions there

    [13:11] lead the way to the Temple

    [13:11] tight quarters

61. Dane Benford
    

    [13:11] mouselock helps

62. Second Life
    

    [13:11] Autopilot canceled

63. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:12] ok while people look inside I will be happy to take questions and discuss

64. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:12] very intteresting

65. Vincent Doctorow
    

    [13:12] Man, I came late.

    [13:12] Is this a USC program?

66. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:12] the inside is really nice :)

67. Grace McDunnough
    

    [13:13] PM, I am making you a suit of armor to replace that HAT!

68. Vincent Doctorow
    

    [13:13] I’m sorry I came a little late.

69. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:13] np :)

70. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:13] so, can you clarify the vision? who will the players be?scity planners and also citizens?

71. Vincent Doctorow
    

    [13:13] In a nut shell, what’re you guys doing?

72. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:14] we said there were several criteria for a City Builder in Virtual Reality

    [13:14] 1. Economics, 2. Architecture, 3. Demographics

    [13:14] for ARchitecture need to be able to walk in it

    [13:14] so we have done that so far

    [13:15] we have several model cities in SL now of course

73. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:15] a question: what must be different from real urban planning here?

74. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:15] Parioli Rome for example

    [13:15] Dublin Ireland

    [13:15] but

    [13:15] having a City Planner in charge of Economics

    [13:15] having Citizens and Demographics

    [13:15] those are NOT in SL

75. Cara Fei
    

    [13:16] in SL we dont need infrastructure

76. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:16] Site, you don’t think that a RL urban planner would change his world if he managed it?

77. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:16] :)

    [13:16] well here’s the thing ..

    [13:16] in a realistically modeled city we’d not be flying about

78. totally Vavoom
    

    [13:16] lol!

79. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:17] and the carts or (or cars) would truly have to abide by physics

    [13:17] I remember in SimCity the first

    [13:17] the difference between adding Rail vs. More Roads

    [13:17] More Roads in the model always made traffic jams

    [13:17] Rail cost a LOT but where it went in there were no more jams

    [13:17] people ARgued with that economic assumption

    [13:18] also SimCity said

    [13:18] if you raise taxes TOO much people will leave

    [13:18] people argued with that too

    [13:18] but um.. it seems to have proved out as accurate :)

80. William Bunavad
    

    [13:18] it was a basic model, if I may interfect.

81. Dane Benford
    

    [13:18] people seem to move where the taxes are lower I think

82. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:18] surely William

83. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:18] another thing: here one can go from a place to another with tp…

84. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:19] this is the free for all, I mean "discussion" part now :)

85. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:19] we don’have many roads, many distance…

86. beladona Memorial
    

    [13:19] but then they demand the services that can only be funded by taxes

87. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:19] would it be better to have?

88. William Bunavad
    

    [13:19] tp is alright, but it’s not the same as reality. infrastructure is a way of limiting things. here you can jam as many people as you want into a single space.

89. Cara Fei
    

    [13:19] roads in Sl are annoying

90. William Bunavad
    

    [13:19] perhaps because they’re redundant if you can fly.

91. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:19] yes

92. Cara Fei
    

    [13:19] they are ugly

93. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:19] yes, but you don’t experience the travel

94. Cara Fei
    

    [13:20] and redundant

95. totally Vavoom
    

    [13:20] I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes

96. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:20] have any of you sailed in SL ?

97. Grace McDunnough
    

    [13:20] Yes

98. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:20] no

99. Cara Fei
    

    [13:20] yes

100. Takver Twin
     

     [13:20] yes

101. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:20] did yo uenjoy it Grace , Tak ?

102. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:20] no

103. Puglet Dancer
     

     [13:20] yes

104. Grace McDunnough
     

     [13:20] I do.

105. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:20] I am astonished how nice it feels!

106. Takver Twin
     

     [13:20] not especially

107. Grace McDunnough
     

     [13:20] I also enjot skydiving ;-)

108. beladona Memorial
     

     [13:20] yes

109. Cara Fei
     

     [13:20] bt a road cuts nature and asthestics

110. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:20] Is the point then that is world allows us to do things that we may not in real life?

111. beladona Memorial
     

     [13:21] altho sometimes there are problems when you cross sim lines

112. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:21] let me address Vavoom’s comment

     [13:21] "[13:20] totally Vavoom: I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes"

113. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:21] Well there’s a whole discussion about two different strains of thought in Second Life, where some want to import stuff from the real life and others want to make a whole different world.

     [13:21] It just depends on the person.

     [13:21] Some people want to see famliar stuff.

     [13:21] I for one like the roads

114. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:21] the one thing SL has going for it is

115. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:21] If they’re done right

116. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:21] let’s face it, it is 3D walkthroughable

     [13:21] but it has no game engine add on

117. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:21] I agree with that, that some want familiar stuff and others don’t

118. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:22] we would need to put two different things together

     [13:22] the Game Engine of Caesar IV with the 3D Walkthrough Engine of Second Life

119. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:22] and the purpose or goal of that is?

120. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:22] The SL stuff needs to go open source then.

121. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:22] and that is not going to happen this year or next

122. William Bunavad
     

     [13:22] well, the physics model exists… that’s all yo ureally need. some limits can be placed on using ‘infrastrcture’ if you wish.

123. Grace McDunnough
     

     [13:22] Can you tell us specifically what you mean by "game engine"

124. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:23] @totally – because in modeling economic cooperation and competition people learn new ways to work together

125. William Bunavad
     

     [13:23] I hear that it will become open once a protocol is stabilized.

126. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:23] which is a goal of mine for one

     [13:23] and of the annenberg project for another

     [13:23] :)

127. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:23] aha! ok, I see where you are going with this now, I think :-). thanks!

128. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:23] Does the annenberg project have a website.

129. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:23] surely :)

     [13:23] @Vincent yes

130. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:23] =D can I have the link please

     [13:23] sorry if you gave it earlier.

     [13:23] I was at work.

     [13:23] At USC incidentally =D

131. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:23] so the goal is to study how people connect and collaborate via a gaming model in a virtual world?

132. William Bunavad
     

     [13:24] isn’t the economix cooperation and competition implicit in SL b/c of the real people involved in the world?

133. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:24] sorry

134. Cara Fei
     

     [13:24] thx

135. William Bunavad
     

     [13:24] perhaps i’m missing something

136. Second Life
     

     [13:24] Sitearm Madonna gave you city building information card 1-0.

137. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:24] with you, I’m not quite getting the point here

138. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:24] ok if I did taht right

     [13:24] you all have

139. beladona Memorial
     

     [13:24] ty Frank

140. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:24] :-)

141. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:24] "[13:20] totally Vavoom: I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes"

142. Puglet Dancer
     

     [13:24] Thanks Frank

143. Cara Fei
     

     [13:25] what’s the point you want to make?

144. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:25] Haha, such open ended questions.

145. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:25] well I will recap my two points for us

     [13:26] . Today we want to present the concept of city building in virtual reality

     [13:26] . And enroll those of you who are interested in helping us work out how to do it in Second Life :)

     [13:26] and if it does not interest you per se there may yet be a piece that does

     [13:26] for example Frank here loves the concept

146. William Bunavad
     

     [13:26] i see, the point is to have the computer run citizens FOR you… like robots.

147. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:26] of "living architecture"

     [13:26] and I maintain that "living architecure"

     [13:26] is the architecture that people LIVE in ;)

     [13:27] (but it has other interpretations too)

148. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:27] how is this different from other places where cities have been built and people are under a form of government

     [13:27] like Neufreistadt

     [13:27] Which comes to mind

149. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:27] oh that is a good question

     [13:27] can Neufreistadt be considered a city builder :)

150. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:27] =D yeah

151. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:28] one of the learnings of city builders is "juggling many factors"

     [13:28] including economics and people

     [13:28] a balancing act

     [13:28] are the folks in Neufrie thingie learning from it :)

     [13:29] and are they having fun yet :)

152. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:29] Which is funny pertinent because Neufreistadt is the second manifestation; the first one sort of got messed up by politics

153. Cara Fei
     

     [13:29] dunno about neufreistadt

154. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:29] so, they could have used the game to try things out before hand?

155. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:29] yes

156. Cara Fei
     

     [13:29] dunno that place, honestly but what does it mean for SL?

     [13:30] for us?

157. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:30] so, I’m still trying to understand whether there will be some players that are "planners" and others that are just citizens?

158. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:30] It means that there can be an internal government

     [13:30] SL right now is sort of anarchic/Linden dictatorship

159. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:30] @Poinky short answer is start as city planners

     [13:30] but there is an interesting play on that

     [13:30] in the Egypt game

     [13:31] citizens are free to come or leave

160. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:31] Well; analogously at Neufreistadt there’s a "council" of people who run things and then there are tenants who are "just citizens", no?

161. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:31] they can forage and feed themselves

     [13:31] so the leader, you, Pharoah have to atTRAct them to wanna make a city with you

162. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:31] How about the Gorean roleplayers, are they city builders?

163. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:31] and what you have to attract is what we called "ability to develop specialized skills"

164. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:31] There are several competing Gorean sims or "cieties"

     [13:31] They have to attract citizens

     [13:32] or risk losing them to other sims

165. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:32] yes

     [13:32] in fact most sims in SL seem to be empthy

166. Dane Benford
     

     [13:32] I belive that game was considered a breakthrough sitearm the egyptian one

167. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:32] but before you get to that point, would you have robot citizens?

168. Cara Fei
     

     [13:32] maybe the players of those games like hierachies?

169. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:32] heh why not Poinky ?

170. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:32] hard to script

171. Cara Fei
     

     [13:32] maybe it’s more of a psychological phenomenon?

172. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:32] lordy yes!

173. William Bunavad
     

     [13:32] are you proposing buliding cities with real citizens or robots? with people not needing to eat in SL, how would you convince people to work?

174. Dane Benford
     

     [13:32] It was the first city builder also called a nurture game by some

175. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:33] Having robot citizens would make the socities nice and stratified

176. William Bunavad
     

     [13:33] are you even talking about city building in SL? (I hope so :)

177. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:33] you’d have your nobles and tenants – real people – and nice group of slave labor – unquestinooing robot people haha

     [13:33] No I don’t Scope

178. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:33] until the robot’s turn sentient..

179. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:33] Har har

180. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:34] So, you said you wanted to recruit – what’s the plan? What are the tasks ppl can sign up for?

181. Cara Fei
     

     [13:34] i personally registered to Sl because it seems like being the only game without hierachies

182. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:34] Yes, listeners want to know!

     [13:34] But SL culture-wise is so enormlously diverse you can’t say whether or not the system as a whole has or doesn’t have hierarhcies

183. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:34] oh ack Poinky :)

     [13:35] well the thing Dane and I did so far was work on that simple model economy we showed you on the slides

184. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:35] there are subcultures that embrace hierarhcies and then there are suspicions of grid-wide hierarchies as well; there are divisions petween people who can script and people who can’t

185. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:35] and start to discuss if it could be scripted

186. Cara Fei
     

     [13:35] ok… the one with the lesser heirarchies *g

187. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:35] people who can build and people who cna’t

     [13:35] people who produce and people who consume

     [13:35] "feted inner core"

     [13:35] that jazz

188. Cara Fei
     

     [13:35] you can still make a happy living here without any skills

189. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:36] =D I make my happy living without any skills – but spend money doing so

     [13:36] har

190. Decka Mah
     

     [13:36] Cara…perhaps it is a game, like life, where the heirarchies ar just not set by the game builder but develop through interaction, chance, relationships

191. Cara Fei
     

     [13:36] no, even as basic account

     [13:36] decka: that’s human and depends on the mentality of the player

     [13:36] but it is not system-immanent

192. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:36] Site, the worlds could represent an utopian vision. Do you think they reflet this?

193. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:37] it depends on the mentality of the players, plural

194. Cara Fei
     

     [13:37] ok

195. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:37] well FRank

     [13:37] if you look at those 20 displays on the plaza

196. Decka Mah
     

     [13:37] Vincent the heirarchies exist in the minds of the players here

197. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:37] there are some very different looks

198. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:37] I think all of us, with our computers, coming from post industrial, first world societies, we are naturally going to organize ourselves into hierarchies

199. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:38] so a city builder lets players design the way THEY see it working

200. Cara Fei
     

     [13:38] vince: not me *g

201. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:38] even the most basica organizing social tool in SL, groups, is about hierarchies

202. Decka Mah
     

     [13:38] bye all …got ot go sadly. Thanks

203. Second Life
     

     [13:38] Poinky Malaprop clears his throat

204. William Bunavad
     

     [13:38] hiercharchy is implicit in the world (and any world), as far as i see it.

205. Cara Fei
     

     [13:38] bye decka

206. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:38] Ok, we’re over time

207. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:38] Awww.

208. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:38] so let’s give Sitearm a round of applause

209. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:38] yes, Site but I think that space, mostly the urban space influences your behavior…

210. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:38] I’m sure she’s happy to talk more

211. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:38] Well, Sitearm can you end by telling us what participation oppurtunities we have?

212. Grace McDunnough
     

     [13:38] Thanks Sitearm!

213. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:39] and contact her if you want to help out

214. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:39] ty ty :)

215. beladona Memorial
     

     [13:39] thank you Sitearm

216. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:39] Hooray

217. Dane Benford
     

     [13:39] I myself build lush green cities with asd many gardens as I can fit, where as others build for efficiancy

218. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:39] Fight On SC!

219. Cara Fei
     

     [13:39] good job, sitearm

220. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:39] o_o;

221. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:39] bravo!!!!

222. Takver Twin
     

     [13:39] thanks

223. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:39] well re participation I recommend you download the demo and try it out

224. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:39] thanks

225. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:39] Mkay.

226. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:39] wonderful meeting!

227. Puglet Dancer
     

     [13:39] Thank you!

228. Dane Benford
     

     [13:39] yay

229. Puglet Dancer
     

     [13:39] Gave me lots to think about.

230. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:39] you will either bless me and Dane or curse us ;)

     [13:39] surely

231. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:39] yes, this was great – I loved the walking tour!

232. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:39] you are all most welcome

     [13:39] thank you for your generous attention ! :)

233. Dane Benford
     

     [13:40] or you could just bless me and curse her;)

234. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:40] Yeah – in terms of lectures in SL, we need more walking and interactive stuff.

235. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:40] you are great!

236. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:40] Less sitting around and making it into an elaborate chatroom

237. Cara Fei
     

     [13:40] thank you sitearm for all this effort!

238. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:40] so this was a nice blueprint for what lectures in SL should be like

     [13:40] =D

239. Cara Fei
     

     [13:40] ok vince

240. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:40] :-)

241. William Bunavad
     

     [13:40] i like teh garden and temple

242. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:40] @Vincent ty :)